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Danielle Liso: Okay, great So my first question, Noah, is, if you would introduce yourself and tell us the name of your organization your role there and where it's located.

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Noah Pawliger: Okay, great my name is Noah Pawliger i'm the executive director and founder of Camp living wonders.

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Noah Pawliger: As well as a new initiative that we're probably going to be rebranding a little bit with camp living wonders to being called wonders abound.

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Noah Pawliger: We have a new initiative that's going to be focusing on teaching people to develop resilience skill sets through the lens of Jewish wisdom and experiential learning.

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Noah Pawliger: we'll be doing a lot of that work with our camp families and our campers. camp living wonders is the southeast's only Jewish residential camp that's built entirely to empower.

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Noah Pawliger: people of all ages with with special needs to to integrate in and develop the skills to integrate into their respective communities with with purpose and pride and and and increased abilities.

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Danielle Liso: I love that mission. and where are you located.

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Noah Pawliger: So we're based in Atlanta Georgia. wonders abound also will be based not only in Atlanta, but in Jerusalem as well.

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Danielle Liso: Oh wow okay that's exciting and that's so that's an initiative that is underway.

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Noah Pawliger: Yes, we just recently got a grant to get the ball rolling, with some some of the development in terms of.

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Noah Pawliger: You know the overall overarching arc of of it, and primarily we're going to be creating a think tank of.

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Noah Pawliger: Thought leaders and professors and psychiatrists and all and scholars in the in the Jewish world to come together and really focus on on this on this element, because resilience is so relevant to so many people, particularly in the special needs world.

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Danielle Liso: that's right as a matter of fact we've been we do a social skills group here, and one of the topics that we cover with both our eight to 12 year old group and our 13 to 17 year old group is resilience and what that really means you know it's a little different than.

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Danielle Liso: Flexibility it's a little different than toughness it's something kind of in between.

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Danielle Liso: So I think that's I think that's really, really valuable for everyone to learn, but particularly, as you said, people in the special needs community.

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Noah Pawliger: Definitely couldn't agree more.

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Danielle Liso: So tell me more about how your organization supports the individuals, what are the types of programs, what do they look like you said it's a residential facility, what does that involve.

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Noah Pawliger: Right so so a lot of people when we think of sleepaway camp and and summer camp I mean anyone who had the good fortune to go to a summer camp knows that it's it's sort of an incubator for so many different life skills and particularly leadership skills.

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Noah Pawliger: And it's incredible because when you think about it it's one of the few places that's a microcosm of.

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Noah Pawliger: Pretty utopian, maybe i'm that's my camp stuff coming out and talking like that because, if I could live in Camp 24 seven I would no question.

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Noah Pawliger: At least that's where my heart and my mind are at usually, but I think that it's it's a place that for 24 hours a day, seven days a week, a person's surrounded by the same set of peers same set of values and an environment that really is focused on cultivating abilities.

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Noah Pawliger: If it's done right, and so what we tried our hardest to do is to really cultivate an environment that is very ability focused, the reason I stress that is because.

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Noah Pawliger: And this is a battle that i've been having with.

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Noah Pawliger: A lot of the Jewish world for a long, long time in terms of defining inclusion and stuff is that you know we were, I think we're kind of unique because we have a different outlook on it.

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Noah Pawliger: And, and in Jewish thought there's there's the concept of chesed which is, which translates to kindness.

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Noah Pawliger: When people say they are doing acts of chesed that's an act of kindness and good deeds and then there's also a concept of tsadiyq.

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Noah Pawliger: Which means righteousness or justice and it's very interesting because you know, one of the challenges we find is people tend to like have a lens of.

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Noah Pawliger: chesed when they when they're applying the word inclusion to their programs because it's about.

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Noah Pawliger: They model it in a way that it's about doing for the person because they can't do for themselves kind of thing, whereas we look at it, as.

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Noah Pawliger: From a much stronger lens of tsadiyq, which is no if we're going to give them the we're going to be focused on abilities and we have to focus.

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Noah Pawliger: and build the program towards their abilities and how to raise them above their current level of limitations, because we believe in them, and we know that they can do.

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Noah Pawliger: It and that's something that I think is.

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Noah Pawliger: a worthwhile battle and something that are you know, trying to the death for.

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Noah Pawliger: But I think that it's really, really, really important that people understand how important it is to focus on ability.

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Noah Pawliger: In the inclusive space, so what we do in camp is very much along those lines, it may be a primarily self contained camp, but we have kids from all different different types of intellectual and.

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Noah Pawliger: developmental disabilities and we found it's interesting because a lot of a lot of people said Oh, that will never work having kids with autism.

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Noah Pawliger: And down syndrome and Asperger like all within the same cabin groups and everything and what we found.

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Noah Pawliger: through careful collection of data and the way that we constructed our camp and built it out from starting from a very, very tiny group.

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Noah Pawliger: And tweaking each year was was that it works, really, really well that you know your average kid who may and maybe a little more timid and on the spectrum.

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Noah Pawliger: is drawn out by a much more garrulous child with down syndrome, who is who's got this warmth and desire to connect and have much more engaging opportunities, socially and we saw that they each start to draw each other out based on their abilities and their social their social.

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Noah Pawliger: Compliments, so to speak, and it was really, really remarkable because when when you see kids developing friendships like you know, even though a lot of it is facilitated social skill development.

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Noah Pawliger: The bonds are really strong and what's really cool about that is that they learn to translate those skill sets into their respective lives when they go home.

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Noah Pawliger: And the desire to connect with others and to take take those skills that they learned the camp and translate them into their everyday life and that's really the ultimate goal.

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Noah Pawliger: is to be able to build people who have who have a skill set to be to be to integrate themselves to share and to give back rather than always being the receiver we want kids to be leaders and givers and teachers.

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Danielle Liso: So they bring out the best in each other.

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Noah Pawliger: yeah it's true and they bring out the best in the staff who are working really hard with them as well.

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Noah Pawliger: And I think that that's that's why I use the word utopian because really ultimately when we look at society that's The goal is that we should strive to bring out the best in each other and and it's something that we can learn a lot from from this population if we if we were able to.

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Noah Pawliger: You know, look at this kind of model I think society could benefit from that.

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Danielle Liso: that's right and that that's why I was so interested in doing this, because you know the model that you're suggesting.

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Danielle Liso: Is that.

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Danielle Liso: kindness isn't about doing for it's showing how right, and you know really giving the supports that are needed, and instead of saying this this poor individual needs so much help and my job is to provide all that help.

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Danielle Liso: it's more about empowerment and and giving them the tools they need and that's that's where the kindness is.

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Danielle Liso: Which I really appreciate.

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Noah Pawliger: It yeah and to sort of double down on what you just said, I think it, it becomes it actually becomes contradictory to kindness, you know when when kindness is done through a lens of pity it's condescending and it's offensive.

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Noah Pawliger: You know, one of the so my my personal rabbi and like someone who I think iluminated the world and continues to illuminate through his teachings.

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Noah Pawliger: is Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson and there's a great book written by Rabbi Ari Sollish on his thoughts pertaining to inclusion.

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Noah Pawliger: But he he set out certain ground rules of how to work with this population, first and foremost, you have to believe beyond a shadow of a doubt.

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Noah Pawliger: In their ability to rise above their current level of limitations, if you don't you really don't have a right to be working with this population.

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Noah Pawliger: Because if that's where your baseline is and you understand, they they too have purpose and they have another place and an ability to contribute in society, then we would never look at them in through the lens of pity or and especially would never look at them as a project.

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Noah Pawliger: And the second thing that he really stressed also was.

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Noah Pawliger: That the that if you really want to be inclusive, you have to look at someone as a part of your family.

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Noah Pawliger: Not a project, because you would never make a project out of someone in your family you'd say another part of my family and they're an equal part of my family and they and what they contribute.

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Noah Pawliger: is unique and it's based on their abilities, not their disability and that's really what we've we've constructed at camp based on on a lot of his his way of looking at things.

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Noah Pawliger: but also because it just makes sense from a human level it just makes sense and and and it's so critical to it, because you see that the outcomes are so much more powerful when you when you look at it, when you focus on things from from that angle.

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Danielle Liso: And I think that people that you work with they can sense that you know they know when someone you know is has high expectations is going to provide a high level of support, but also has high expectations.

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Danielle Liso: And I think they rise to that that's what that's that's why I love, what I do too because that's you know you can never underestimate, you always have to overestimate and then you help them get there.

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Noah Pawliger: 1000 percent.  1000 percent.

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Danielle Liso: Can you tell me some advice that you would give individuals with disabilities and their families regarding how they could make their.

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Danielle Liso: Experience within their religious community.

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Danielle Liso: Community more meaningful and successful.

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Noah Pawliger: Yes, um well it's it's ironic, because in the Jewish community, one of the biggest struggles for for this population is always.

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Noah Pawliger: Where to find a comfortable like home as much as I think the Jewish community tries to be inclusive, and I, and again this goes back to that battle i'm fighting, day in and day out about the inclusive model.

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Noah Pawliger: You know, and in the South, I didn't realize what this term meant until someone explained it to me a couple years ago that the whole term bless your heart.

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Noah Pawliger: I thought it was like a genuine you know bless your heart you're so sweet kind of thing and I, and I was like that Nice old lady.

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Noah Pawliger: is so sweet she gave me a blessing.

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Noah Pawliger: And it was funny because I was Designing an initiative at the children's hospital up here to teach parents and icu, to be more resilient.

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Noah Pawliger: And, and one of the nurses came over to me and she's like that old lady just totally insulted you and I was like no she said something so sweet, and she goes no no.

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Noah Pawliger: Down here, that's not what you think it is but that's something that I always think of whenever I see a synagogue saying we're building we're making our bathrooms more accessible.

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Noah Pawliger: And we're you know we're we're we're you know, putting on ramps and stuff and I think that's incredible it's necessary it's important but i'm waiting for the newsletters to say.

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Noah Pawliger: This week, so, and so you know with autism is going to be leading services or or so we're offering classes for this population.

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Noah Pawliger: Unfortunately, like i'm in Atlanta, and I just found out the last bastion of.

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Noah Pawliger: any type of programming for differential learners in any of the Jewish day schools in Atlanta is dying at the end of this year so that means people are going to have to make the unfortunate decision.

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Noah Pawliger: of whether or not their kid can get a Jewish education or have to go somewhere that's more focused on their disabilities and their and their abilities.

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Noah Pawliger: And no one should ever have to make that decision, so one piece of advice is for families is.

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Noah Pawliger: You make every effort to advocate for yourselves and to tell synagogues and and and community leaders what you need and what you want, and and what your kid.

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Noah Pawliger: is capable of and say I want I want justice as the same as my and my other kids that they should.

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Noah Pawliger: be able to get a Jewish education and know their narrative and who they are and where they come from, they have every right to they're part of our Community they're part of our people.

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Noah Pawliger: And I think that that's a big mistake that people make is is by not giving them those opportunities enough.

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Noah Pawliger: We, as a community suffer because we're not complete without them and and and so a from a parental perspective, and I myself have a child, with special needs so.

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Noah Pawliger: I would say, you know, do everything you can make as much noise as you can for for them to have those opportunities as well, and for your family to say we, we want to be included, we want to be a part of this, we want to contribute.

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Noah Pawliger: Instead of saying we want to be included because.

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Noah Pawliger: The danger of saying we want to be included is so everyone I say okay we'll include you the way we've been including everyone and doing things for you, instead of saying well, what do you want to bring to the table, what do you want to share.

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Noah Pawliger: So that's a big component and the other thing is always always always find the people who are looking to innovate and and get behind them and support the innovations and and.

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Noah Pawliger: creations that when someone has an idea of how to how to really do something for your child that's going to empower them.

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Noah Pawliger: get behind that empowerment and say and tell people about it and share it via word of mouth ansd social media, whatever it may be.

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Noah Pawliger: But also create your own voice, and I think that's The third thing is is really get out there when you hear about something that your child benefits from that you benefit from.

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Noah Pawliger: share it share it like crazy the power of technology and social media, for better or worse, these days, the word spreads very quickly and if.

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Noah Pawliger: If families are sharing resources and connecting with each other on any level, not only does it reduce the amount of isolation that you might be experiencing, but it also you know.

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Noah Pawliger: connectivity is such a key element to building community and and that's one thing about these families that when they do come together in any shape or form.

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Noah Pawliger: it's a very tight bond and it's a really incredible thing that people can learn from so you know sharing what you're learning from each other is really, really important.

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Danielle Liso: That actually leads right into my next question which is, how can the community at large help support the spiritual community that you work within to help meet the needs of individuals with autism and related disabilities.

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Noah Pawliger: that's a great question Danielle I do think that you know again if we if we can start shifting the paradigm.

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Noah Pawliger: away from disability focused to ability focused is a big big step and and I think it'll help people shift their ideals about inclusion as a whole, when it is more focused on wow what can this person do.

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Noah Pawliger: there's a really incredible book.

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Noah Pawliger: Dr Gail Saltz, I believe the last name from from Columbia University wrote it's called the power of different and I happened to pick it up in a.

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Noah Pawliger: bookstore as a guided what's app tour that someone was we were doing an experiential thing and they said pick a random book on the shelf.

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Noah Pawliger: And I feel like this book was put in front of me for a purpose.

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Noah Pawliger: And I pulled it out and started reading on a random page and was like crying because they were just speaking so much of the truth about within every disorder there's a level of genius.

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Noah Pawliger: That that particular population has that no one else has and and I think that you know it's such a reassuring uplifting book, I recommend it to everybody, but one of the things that.

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Noah Pawliger: We, as a community and and the world at large, could afford to do is when we focus on the good in anybody, and particularly the abilities that a person brings to the table.

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Noah Pawliger: And then, then our whole outlook is shifted it no longer goes from oh poor thing and bless their heart they cant' do it.

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Noah Pawliger: To wow look at what they can do and what I got out of it, you know.

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Noah Pawliger: Unfortunately, because the inclusion lens has always been about what we're doing for people who can't do so, the feel good is the person who's doing for the person who can't do and it's not about the feel good if we're talking about and.

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Noah Pawliger: Inclusion usually falls into this the social justice realm.

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Noah Pawliger: If we're talking about social justice, then it should be about no i'm going to focus on your abilities and i'm going to encourage you to do more i'm going to encourage you to be a contributor and.

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Noah Pawliger: And that's a really healthy outlook for everybody now is empowering each other and believing in each other.

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Noah Pawliger: And so, for that, for this population, particularly and I realize this is a very long winded answer and I apologize.

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Noah Pawliger: But I think for this population it's so important, more than ever to be able to focus on on that that level and and encouraging each other to anytime you get into an inclusion discussion.

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Noah Pawliger: Try to encourage people to remove the dis from from ability as much as possible when they look at someone and say Oh, I see what they can do and wow they.

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Noah Pawliger: do some things that I could never do and and then we'll see a really bright change in their presence in our in the general Community.

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Danielle Liso: Well, I have to say that I really appreciate it admire your knowledge and your passion about this topic, because I think that your perspective's a really important one, that we are thinking about.

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Danielle Liso: Pushing people to what they can do, even if they can't do it, yet you know, having high expectations and positive assumptions and then thinking creatively and innovatively, as you said.

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Danielle Liso: about ways to make that happen, whether they exist now or not, and so new initiatives like the ones you described at the beginning.

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Danielle Liso: I think, are going to make all the difference because we've we've learned a lot about disabilities and we, we have a pretty good idea of what to do, but.

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Danielle Liso: there's so much more we could be doing.

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Danielle Liso: And there's so many other ways we could be approaching the support that we provide to individuals of any age.

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Danielle Liso: And so i'm really, really excited.

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Danielle Liso: to have the opportunity to have spoken to you today and to learn more about the Program.

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Danielle Liso: I knew I knew about your program and i've i've been to your website and all of that stuff and It just seems like such an incredible program that i'm really glad we'll have an opportunity to showcase it a little bit.

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Noah Pawliger: Well, I can't Thank you enough Danielle it really means the world I love everything that you guys do at card and.

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Noah Pawliger: And I hope that we can work together soon, I know that we had some brief discussions a couple years ago about incorporating you guys into our staff training and everything I love love.

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Danielle Liso: I am still in I would be happy to do it in person via zoom I don't care how you know we.

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Danielle Liso: We can think creatively, but I would.

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Noah Pawliger: love the opportunity, so we can begin definitely regroup about that i'm very excited about that opportunity but but um but yeah I really think there's just so much.

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Noah Pawliger: there's so much good that can come out of believing in in our exceptional souls that we work with and and and believing in each other and.

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Noah Pawliger: and when it happens, you see the tangible good that comes from it so it's gonna be great so thank you so much, I really appreciate this opportunity.

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Danielle Liso: Thank you, I really appreciate it too Noah we'll be in touch soon, and hopefully we'll be able to collaborate again.

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Noah Pawliger: Looking forward, thank you so much.

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Danielle Liso: Take care.

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Noah Pawliger: have a wonderful day.

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Danielle Liso: You too bye.